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Welcome to Episode Eighty-One of Lucretius Today. I am your host Cassius, and together with my panelists from the EpicureanFriends.com forum, we'll walk you through the six books of Lucretius' poem, and discuss how Epicurean philosophy can apply to you today. We encourage you to study Epicurus for yourself, and we suggest the best place to start is the book, "Epicurus and His Philosophy" by Canadian professor Norman DeWitt. For anyone who is not familiar with our podcast, please visit EpicureanF…

While I am working on the text of this episode one thing catches my eye: I see that Book Five ends with what I have observed to be mentioned several times as an interesting allusion that probably has deeper meaning that meets the eye - the "Shores of light" allusion. My bet is that this is some kind of allusion that derives from the Epicurean physics, and was a commonplace to them but unfamiliar to us, just like we mentioned recently how out of nowhere Lucretius referenced that the use of animal…

It seems to me that among the possible references here is that we know that the elemental particles are too small to see, and that regardless of whether we can see them or not, they have no color, so none of that is relevant until the particles and void come together as bodies, so that the precincts or shores of light could be a reference to our human sphere of perception and action, as opposed to the atomic level from which all things are really generated. So that phrases like "shores of light"…

Welcome to Episode Eighty-One of Lucretius Today. In this Episode 81 we will start at approximately Latin line 1350 and we'll go through the end of Book Five. As always, please let us know if you have any comment in the thread below. Please remember also that you can subscribe to our podcast through any podcast player and download them directly to your phone at the link below. spreaker.com/episode/45917304

In listening to this over today here's something I'd like to explore: In the sections where Lucretius is talking about people not realizing the "limits of possession" (I need to find the quote) I wonder if th4re is not another shade of meaning rather than the "limit" referring to "how much is possible." Don't some of the words for "limit" have the additional connotation of the "goal" or "target" of a thing? In the context of discussing the "limit of possessions" I would think it would be more na…

It would be natural for "purpose" to be a prime concern of Epicurus - probably so much so that "purpose" is primarily the first thing on his mind and all else is a subtext, since in the end he has concluded that our great need in life is pleasure/ happiness and you would never expect him to be very far from that premise.

What about the Greek, Don? I know the first thing that comes to mind is PD3: If viewed in that way, this is pretty much mirror of what is stated in the letter to Meneoceus as: (Quote) So if we focus on the "goal" or "purpose" aspect then PD3 is not to focus on what is the "highest" pleasure, or calling absence of pain the highest pleasure, but more like "The purpose of [the pursuit of ?] pleasure is the removal of pain...." Which of course reminds us of the constant issue of how to characterize …

Ok let's add THIS to the pot: Isn't the name generally given to Cicero's work -- "DE FINIBUS"? And wouldn't it be fair to think that the connotation intended by Cicero (if in fact he used that title or term) was not primarily "boundary-mark" or "border" as much as it was "Ends in the sense of purposes or goals"? My layman's observation is that most scholars tend to translate the title as "On Ends" rather than "On Boundary-Marks" or "On Borders" And I think they intend their readers to think that…

And of course you might even think of integrating this "purpose rather than limit" analogy with the opening of the letter to Menoeceus, when Epicurus talks about happiness (one of the appearances of eudaemonia?) rather than using the word pleasure again. If so, the implication might be taken that even though "pleasure" is all that is desirable in itself, it is helpful for us humans to realize that the purpose of pursuing any individual particular pleasure is the attainment of happy living / happ…

Maybe that's why we also see the full title as "De Finibus Bonorum et Malorum" because too many people were getting confused and thinking that the book was about map-making Ya think? I'm thinking that probably wasn't a big problem.

Well I think there are probably multiple things going on and they don't all resolve to the same point. I would say that clearly there are times when the End as a "boundary-mark" is definitely what is meant, especially in terms of things that can be, and things that can't be. At other times the End as a "goal" is definitely what is meant, in the same sense as Cicero's "on the ends of good and evil." We just have to be nimble-footed enough to go with the flow and see when one meaning is meant vers…

Great link!

Oh I like the word "finitors" - I'd like to see some ancient usage of that one!