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I have a nephew who tends towards stoicism. A lot of talk about virtue. As an alternative, I gradually introduce the Epicurean notions. The big hurdle for him is to accept that pleasure can be a valid natural goal. Many components of Epicurean thought are logically weaved into a consistent framework. But this framework has its axioms and unless I am mistaken, pleasure as a goal in life is a critical one. If I require my nephew to accept that "pleasure is the valid natural goal in life", I would …

(Quote from Cassius) Thank you Cassius, very handy summary of the views on this question. Without knowing the background, I was indeed tending towards accepting this as just observation (same as "I have a nose" - no need to give logical arguments). So one part of the question is: should we need logical argumentation, the other - what that argumentation should be.

(Quote from Cassius) But couldnt the same approach be applied to Gods? I don't see or touch pleasure, in the same way I don't see or touch Gods. Yet, I feel it. Who is to say that someone doesn't feel God, ergo she is as right as I am?

(Quote from Joshua) Thank you Joshua , a very interesting paragraph. The part "Nature's own ...judgement" from my vantage point refers to evolution, meaning we are just naturally built that way. But we are also naturally built to care for children, family, animals, and often at detriment to ourselves. Trying to unpack (and please correct my thinking here) - in the process of evolution my species (as it is now) survived out of all possible random variations due to the balance it strikes in its de…

(Quote from Cassius) To clarify my thought here, what I mean is if you collect a set of humans, on the average, they would show certain average balance between being Mother Theresa and being selfish. Of course, there is no absolute correct/incorrect or a moral judgement that altruism is better than selfishness. But we tend to cluster in an area (central limit in stats), which is an outcome of evolution. That balance is an evolutionary random outcome and is subject to constant change as well.

Matteng after I posted this question, and helped by kind contributions from Cassius, Joshua and Pacatus I arrived at the following thought process, which might be helpful: 1. There is nothing outside the material world (Epicurean atomism), so there is no way for us to observe or experience virtue. One cannot accept as a goal in life something that cannot be tested, observed or defined. 2. We can observe that humans (even newly born) are attracted to pleasure (e.g. bread for a hungry person) and…

(Quote from Don) Don raised a major question in my untrained mind. The understanding of ataraxia in Epicurean sense in my view is different in nuance to stoics and other schools. Facing a major challenge or a headwind causes us to have a natural reaction: adrenaline, fight/flight instinct etc. In extreme, we do feel perturbed, sad, unsettled or concerned. A stoic take on this would be: "use your jedi mind trick to calm down, none of this matters, because your virtue is not under threat". The Epi…