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Good to hear from you waterholic and this is a very interesting question that it would be good to see if others have suggestions. But first, it seems to me that if you are looking for an abstract syllogistic / logical proof that pleasure is the goal of life, Torquatus would tell you that while some Epicureans (including Torquatus himself) might accept that as a proper approach, that Epicurus himself did not: (Quote) My view would be that Epicurus rather than Torquatus was right, and that we need…

Just in case anyone is not aware of this section of Diogenes Laertius, this too would be relevant to the central question, which is lesser role that Epicurus gave to the use of abstract / dialectical logic in the determination of truth: (Quote)

Also so as to be clear for others reading, what it seems Epicurus would reject is this question in itself - (Quote from waterholic) As best I can determine Epicurus would say that you indeed "would not need" to provide any abstract logical proof at all, because logical proof tests are not the tests of human reality. The tests applicable to human reality are the perceptions we receive from the sensations, anticipations, and feelings, which we accept as the basis for all our reasoning. All validat…

Also I think this is one area where later Epicureans went wrong in deviating from Epicurus. They should have stuck to Epicurrus' original insight and contention that logical word games are not the proper test of truth. Or, at the very least, if they decided to engage in those logical word games they should have been rigorously clear that those word games were just that - word games with strictly limited usefulness. And in fact perhaps they did make that distinction, but in relaying them through …

(Quote from waterholic) Who is to say? That answer I think would be just like any other question, and only you can answer it by evaluating the evidence that is available to you and making the best decision that is possible to you. If someone tells me that they have direct evidence of God then I tell them I am from Missouri and I ask them to "show me." If they can't, then I place their claim in the category of many other claims that are made without evidence that I can verify or have good reason …

Matteng your post led me back to the Wikipedia on Falsifiability: (Quote) Are you thinking that there is anything in that Stoic material that gets to the issue of falsifiability of the Epicurean position? Or of the link between virtue and pleasure that Epicurus states? While there is a link Epicurus is very clear that virtue is a tool for pleasure and not an end in itself. If you are not familiar with The Torquatus position in On Ends, and the statement of Diogenes of Oinoanda in Fragment I thin…

(Quote from A_Gardner) Yes it certainly can..... and .... (Quote from A_Gardner) Yes it certainly can..... and ..... Both of the questions are exactly why I think it is such a terrible fallacy to accept the consensus view that "tranquility" or even "ataraxia" (which I think is best to translate into English and call it for what it is - "absence of disturbance") is the Epicurean goal of life! Not shouting at you here but this gives me another opportunity to get out the soapbox: Of COURSE pleasure…

For the sake of argument, let's grant for a moment that the advocates of "tranquility" as the goal of life will quickly accept what they don't grant to Epicurus - that it is sometimes necessary to embrace pain or disturbance for a few minutes - so that they can "get back on the path to tranquility." So such a person is going to admit that there are times when they deviate from their highest goal, for the sake of getting back on to that highest goal -- but they are going to admit that their highe…

This is a far better description of the goal of life -- a life of pleasure lived in this way - and there is no way that the word "tranquility" or even "ataraxia" conveys this. The aspect of "absence of disturbance" is clearly focused on not brooking any interruptions to a life of pleasure pursued actively and vigorously in this way: (Quote from Torquatus from "On Ends" (Rackham)) A life spent sleeping in a cave would certainly be tranquil, but it does not take an Epicurus to see that s…

Further, the goal of life is not "the removal of pain" because "the goal of life" is defined by the philosophers to be that ultimate end for which you do everything else. Again, see Torquatus' narrative: (IX. I will start then in the manner approved by the author of the system himself, by settling what are the essence and qualities of the thing that is the object of our inquiry; not that I suppose you to be ignorant of it, but because this is the logical method of procedure. We are inquiring, th…

(Quote from A_Gardner) Yes, a fruit, or a side benefit, or just one of many other aspects of how pleasure can be enjoyed in life. Most certainly not some special state, the achievement of which everything in life, and every other goal in life, is subordinate. Once again it's a matter of whether the term is being used as normal people might use it. I have no issues with it in a broad or loose way, in regular conversation, or even in a technical sense if someone wants to define the best life as a …

As Don said at the start I don't think he and i are far apart at all. We are in agreement that ataraxia / tranqulity is not THE goal that supercedes all others, and that is virtually the entire thrust of my point. What i think is perhaps worth talking about further is this point which I am not sure i have seen Don make before: (Quote from Don) (Quote from Don) Frankly that is a new assertion to me and i am not sure that I am aware of textual citations to support it, nor do i think it is obvious …

Aside from this cite which indicates something other than "calmness" (can you sing along a glorious triumph-song calmly?) , is there not another about the wise man WILL cry out while on the rack? (Quote) Here it is from Diogenes Laertius: (Quote) So there is my explicit license from the texts: When I am on the rack I will not "keep calm and carry on" like nothing significant is happening!

No we are not done at all, but in the meantime Don has inspired another thread: Five Doses That Trump Four Every Time - The "Five-Part Cure"