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  • (Quote from Cassius) This to me points to some deeper ideas that I would love to get into, however I am short on time today so will have to come back to this later. I would say that if anyone closely observes the nature and experience of pleasure over time, then it will make sense.
  • I am really enjoying this thread!! (and I need to re-read from beginning to end, as may have missed reading a few entries). For me all of this discussion is the basis of well-being and happiness. And we can see what Epicurus may or may not have said. And we can also apply all of this in a practical way. For example, yesterday I had a wonderful lunch with a good friend and I felt both very satisfied and also that I had eaten more than what I needed (and so felt overly full). But then not too much…
  • The closest think that comes to me regarding "homeostasis" is Vatican Saying 11 - "For most people, to be quiet is to be numb and to be active is to be frenzied." And so this is pointing at something which is neither. Just like katastematic pleasure may be more highly valued for introverts, so too "homeostasis" may be more highly valued for introverts. Introverts are more sensitive to the internal feeling of the body. Don I don't remember if there is an article or discussion you may have posted …
  • There is so much good stuff coming up here in this thread, yet it feels just beyond my ability to adequately synthesize. Thank you Don for your work on translation, and Godfrey you added some good stuff too. And Cassius thank you for holding the line and your explanation in the above post. I would add that your label of the "Wikipedia-Epicureans" would refer to the "tranquility-as-the-goal-Epicureans". You continue to uphold the "fullness-of-pleasure-Epicureans" as the best way to bring forward …
  • I just found this, and it looks like a worthwhile read, and may be good for those who want a clear presentation of things -- Chapter 7 -- starts with a very clear introduction and then at about 5 pages into it, goes into a comparison of kinetic/kastastematic. I didn't get very far into it, so not sure what his full take on Epicureanism is. (Is this already referenced somewhere on the forum?) "Pleasure in Ancient Greek Philosophy" by David Wolfsdorf https://sites.unimi.it/zucchi/NuoviFile/Wolsdor…
  • btw -- Cassius, it may be tempting to want to "throw the baby out with the bathwater" on this writing by Wolfsdorf, but there still could be something helpful in it.
  • (Quote from Cassius) (Quote from Cassius) Pleasure is an experience --- I'd say that the goal of an Epicurean is to experience a pleasureable life. A non-Epicurean may be focused on the life goal of getting things and achievements, through the abstraction of "virtue" or "being (or striving to be) a good person" or "excellence" or "rising to the top". But this would not guarantee a happy life. So Epicurus says here is the path that he believes will guarantee a happy life. And also important to co…
  • I feel as if my brain is slightly "under-performing" lately -- I am just barely following this whole discussion. You've all wrote so much, and now I have to add this, which may not be supported by any texts or writings of Epicurus -- Besides katastematic "calmness" there should be a category for pleasures such as friendship and self-sufficiency (these "goods" could almost fall into the katastematic category). Once you establish either a friendship or self-sufficiency (which I define as the abili…
  • (Quote from Cassius) There is a chapter which contains comparisons between Epicurus and the Cyreniacs in the book: "Pleasure in Ancient Greek Philosophy" - I skimmed enough to see that it goes into great detail (and it hurts my brain, so may not read it). Which you can find the link to the PDF of the book here: RE: Do Pigs Value Katastematic Pleasure? ( Summer 2022 K / K Discussion) I prefer to keep things simple, though I may come back to diving in deeper into all of this sometime in the future…
  • (Quote from reneliza) Thank you reneliza, I started reading the article and it looks good, and brings up some important ideas. Also, as I get older I am noticing that I now have "neutral" feelings with regard to some things which in the past used to create a tremendous positive affect. And reading this article may help me understand, as well as feel okay about that neutrality. Here is an excerpt about how the author of the article defines neutral affect. "We define neutral affect as feeling indi…