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  • UPDATE: The most recent version of the graphic, discussed in the posts at the end of this chain, is this one:AllegoryOfTheOasis-Updated.jpg The following thread discusses the evolution of this graphic. ________________ Allegoryofoasis.jpgThis post is for discussion of Nate's "Allegory of the Oasis" graphic. Comments to it can also be posted in the gallery, but this thread is for discussion of the details and changes over time. Here is the most well-developed summary of its content, but this nee…
  • Here is the original discussion which took place in 2017 about this graphic. Names have been changed except for Cassius and Nate himself: Cassius Amicus July 18 at 6:25pm One of the memorable aspects of Plato's philosophy is his "allegory of the cave," which illustrates his fundamental view that you have no knowledge of reality unless you're part of the Academic Elite. The cave picture neatly conveys the kind of "path to true knowledge" that abstract theories offer, and Epicurus' reaction to th…
  • Part 2 ---Nathan Bartman ALLEGORY OF THE DESERT (or of the GARDEN. Or of the OASIS. That sounds nice: ALLEGORY OF THE OASIS). Prolepsis can be healthy birds flying over the desert, leading the wanderer to the garden. We can extend the metaphor to equate the cultivation of the...See More Cassius Amicus Excellent. Poster8 You guys are such boffins, I LOVE IT! wink emoticon;) Poster6 Just a few minor points, more for fun than as objections: Directing the telescope to the sun is a bad idea. Looking…
  • Yes, LD, that is a good question. Also, I gather you are probably not checking the FB location (and that is wise for all the reasons we have discussed) but Nate is motivated to do a revision, so that's why these recent posts here. I think he is sort of rethinking the whole "motif" (right word?) to see if he can improve it. In that regard I am remembering that you were a fan of the dinosaur, of which I approve too, but I am suggesting as currently posed it might not be clear to a lot of people wh…
  • Wow very interesting and good! This is quite a difference in approach from the first one! A "board game" analogy. Is there a "starting point"? Where would you suggest that someone looking at it for the first person would rest their eyes first?
  • Thinking back to the Platonic allegory, if I recall it starts focused on the people chained in the cave, then has the movement of one of them to the outside, and then the same guy back again. Is there any parallel movement going on here, or what would be the substitute for the "story line"?
  • All sounds good to me Nate! Also, here is a thought that I am not sure fits in with this theme, but I was reminded of it by the TED talk that JAWS posted tonight: It's always seemed to me that what can get lost in epistemology discussions is the *importance* of getting it right. The TED talk was - to me - was right on with every technical conclusion that he was making, but he still insisted on calling the whole thing an "hallucination." Whenever I hear someone talk like that, it makes me think …
  • Once again this is great - I particularly like the ghost behind the "desert of illusion"! Is it time to start working on a "legend" or description, or do you think major changes are yet to come? I see you have dropped the "pathways" and that may lead to more questions about how to follow the "progression"
  • So maybe the title "Allegory of the Oases" is itself in need of change, if this is essentially a "Map" of ___________
  • That sounds excellent Nate! It's a shame that in reality we humans aren't as smart, or we fall into the temptations that they don't, and so we go off the track where they don't. I think your theme has a lot of potential!For some reason this reminds me of - . If then the doctrine I have set forth is clearer and more luminous than daylight itself; if it is derived entirely from Nature's source; if my whole discourse relies throughout for confirmation on the unbiased and unimpeachable evidence of …
  • Oh wow this is great I am reading now!
  • Just a few comments --- 2 - "When your anticipations do not complement reality..." Possibly "comport with reality" or "agree with reality" or "conform to reality" ??
  • That's an excellent next step Nate! I am going to think on it tonight to see if I have anything else. Were you going to use a particular animal to dramatize the movement along the path?
  • Nate I see the title "Allegory of the Oasis" is still there.... which is fine....I wonder if some other general label or box might still serve to tie the whole thing together and explain the scenario --- for example box 1 starts with "We" -- who is "we" and how might it be conveyed to the viewer what role the viewer should assume in reading through the progression?
  • I think what you're going back and forth on is part of the issue. Somebody looking at panel one at first glance might think the entire theme is "Stormy Dialectic" due to the placement of that term in the center. Maybe we're so close to the details that we need some fresh eyes to ask some fresh questions like "What is this all about?" or whatever. Maybe it might be a good idea to start a new post at FB with some kind of general question like "Give me your general thoughts on seeing this for the f…
  • You know, the second panel has the Epicureans lined up facing toward the oasis with Epicurus at the end, and that works well I think. The first panel, however-- I'm not sure that it has the same kind of "theme" that pulls it together in the same way or shows that it is a progression (still thinking)
  • Nate I'm still wondering if things would be more clear if there was a character in the picture representing the "We" who is referenced in first bubble of panel one. On panel two, you have animals moving toward the oasis, but not one thing representing the "we." Would it be more clear if the "we" were represented by a uniform someone/something moving through the diagram and encountering those people? To some extent that's the way the cave analogy worked, with the main character moving from place …
  • I think this is coming along VERY well! Let me check your other posts. I hope others will comment! One minor thought going through my mind is that our stoic friends might quibble with the wording of the mountain of virtue description - they probably see their mountain not as much of a "dismissal of anguish" or a "sanctuary from the storm" as much as glorious height to be scaled or a "better" or "more worthy" way....
  • Ok only very minor edits at this point. Panel 2 - "We may come doubt" should be "We may come to doubt..." [[[ Sorry - now I see you commented on that already]]] Panel 3 - this is not a correction but a thought -- might "groundless conceptions" be better as "groundless abstractions"? Ok, now back to panels one and two for conceptual questions: - If I were explaining this diagram to someone, I would emphasize that when we say "we begin" we are referring to "at birth" / "as children" etc. I might …
  • i think you are correct nate that any order will work, but it did occur to me to say that Skepticism might logically be the LAST one, because I think it is a common problem that people bounce to skepticism AFTER they see how the various schools totally disagree with each other - and they give up thinking that any one could be correct. But i didn't suggest that earlier because I was thinking that the 'winds of skepticism" made a good link to why one would lead the garden in the first place. But …