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  • (Quote from Kalosyni) Kalosyni - I think you are having an issue with something that I recall you also brought up on the 20th, though I am not sure I can recall exactly how. I think it was in reference to your questioning how Epicurus was dividing up all feelings into pleasure and pain. Don may have some comment on what I am about to say here, but the following is my interpretation of the issue you are questioning. The root of the issue, as I see it, gets back to the fact that Epicurus fighting …
  • I suspect the SPA philosophers would agree with Don that life is to be lived. They would beg to differ on the issue of what it means to live - what it is that we should "to keep our eye on ... to guide us in the right direction." Rather than "pleasure as the north star" as Don suggests, they assert either "divine revelation" (if they are Socrates talking about his demon telling him things) or "logic" (or whatever word you want to use to describe the art of word-gaming that implies that the ultim…
  • I think we are seeing another exhibition of the slightly different approaches that Don and I are taking. I agree with what Don has written, BUT: We first have to have an understanding of the precise wording of what we are quoting from Kaolosyni, and in my view why she is struggling with it. "Multiple components comprise the Epicurean life. There is more to laud in the "sweetest life" than just pleasure." As I read the sentence, she is implicitly questioning the decision to define the goal of lif…
  • Before Don and I go too far in debating what "others" may be doing, we really need to hear back from Kalosyni to hear more explanation from her on what she means in saying: Multiple components comprise the Epicurean life. There is more to laud in the "sweetest life" than just pleasure.
  • (Quote from Don) Yes I was not intending to take us back to the "desire" vs "pleasure" or "feeling" question. When I wrote desirable there I was just looking for another synonym of pleasurable - I could just as well have said "feels good" rather than "desirable." The issue of desire and will and issues like that I consider to be matters of psychology or even some other aspect, and not really the same issue we are talking about here at all. What I think we are talking about here is a big-picture …
  • Kalosyn I I believe it would be interesting to consider you as being in the role of Philebus, and picture Socrates (really Plato) responding to your comment instead of one of us: Socrates: So K, if you believe that pleasure is governed by wisdom and reason, then you believe that wisdom and reason are superior to, and more important to have, than pleasure? K - Well.... ? Socrates:L If so, K, then you really maintain that the ultimate most important thing for you to have is wisdom and reason, beca…
  • My paraphrases based on quotes from Philebus! I left out the "purity" argument which is also in Philebus. I got started on my attempt to chart all the arguments in the dialog but it is a bigger job than I expected. I need to basically paste the full dialog into an outlining program so I can slice and dice it by section - just like the cooks that Plato so fancied! And one of these days I am going to finally get a grip on " the one and the many" argument -. Although I expect I am going to have to …
  • At this moment all I can think about is that meme from one of the early Star Wars movies where the rebel general exclaims "It's a trick!"
  • But it is clear to me that the "trick" involves the allegation that it is necessary to slice and dice any subject up into components, which then implies that the various components must be ranked, which then leads inevitably to the conclusion that the "art of ranking" is more important than any instance of the thing you are examining. So once you admit the necessity to slice and dice ( I.e. in this case that some pleasures are better than others) you inevitably have lost the argument that pleasu…
  • I am pretty sure I understand your position, Godfrey and Don, and I think there is a possibility that you are right in this case. K. Has to be the ultimate judge of that. But this I also believe to be true: That every aspect of our current American society is so thoroughly anti-epicurean in nature that we must expect that anyone who has not already thoroughly examined these issues has been "programmed" with very damaging assertions about the biggest issues of life. The issue of the role of pleas…
  • (Quote from Don) That would be a very interesting discussion for a separate thread -- "first steps" in exploring the path of the garden!"