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  • Thanks for posting that Hiram! I haven't read the article yet - going there now. As to this: (Quote from JJElbert) I think that is completely correct. What that formulation always causes me to ask myself is this: Is what we are really saying that "the only certain standard is feeling" -- and is that not the case because ultimately we are saying that abstractions are abstractions, but the ultimate thing that is real to us is "sensation" (feeling)? I think that is probably the ultimate implicatio…
  • (Quote from Hiram) I still haven't read the article but if it says that, Hiram, I think we have to end up with Joshua. From a philosophical perspective I think we are first trying to be right / accurate, and only after that consider what pleases us personally. The idea that it is up to us to "trust the people," as if we have right to decide for them what is correct, jumps out at me as a major problem.Of course we aren't going to always like what the people decide, and so we have to take steps t…
  • See this IMMEDIATELY reminds me of why I find Nussbaum so objectionable. What I commented on above is EXACTLY what she is doing - playing God:
  • This is probably accurate, because Wilson's vision of Epicureanism IS largely Buddhism!
  • And thus enters her Utilitarianism, which has no justification in Epicurean texts:
  • I do not think this is a correct interpretation of what Epicurus was getting at here, and as an example, I would cite Hiram's picture of the dove being eaten by the Hawk. Sometimes struggle IS necessary, and that's obvious, and it's obvious that Epicurus would have understood that too, so an extreme application of this cannot have been his intent. The picture Hiram posted of a scene he saw in Chicago: (Quote)
  • Ok if Wilson said this, then she is right and is not as far off as some of the rest of the article might indicate:
  • OK this too is an important point and one we regularly discuss, but the answer that is clear, I think, is not given. The clear answer is that Epicurus said that LENGTH of life is not the only consideration, but whether it is the most pleasurable. And there's no ideal / absolute / mechanical ranking which tells us howr to value those cigarettes against the long life. No one outside us has the "moral right" or the "absolute right" any supernatural or other claim to being able to say that their ca…
  • General Comment: Many of these issues overlap with the issues that Elayne raised in connection with the video which claimed "Office Space" was a good Epicurean model. I'm glad that Hiram found this article because what he is pointing out about Nussbaum is I think closely related. The prevailing viewpoint from the Nussbaum perspective seems to me to be to emphasize the "denial/limits" side of Epicurean thought for exactly the reason stated here: She doesn't want other people pursuing pleasures t…
  • That's a great way to say it. (Quote from JJElbert)
  • (Quote from Elayne)And if they cannot be persuaded that they are happier out of jail than in jail, then the issue is that others who ARE applying Epicurean philosophy will put them in jail (or worse) to prevent them from harming others (us or our friends). It seems to me that what is being debated here is utilitarianism in practice, which is separate from Epicurus as a philosophy. Hiram is no doubt correct that some people will not judge wisely, and will engage in activity that is self destruct…
  • Yes there are many levels of things going on here. At one level, we're all here for what this adds to our own pleasure in the immediate experience, and in that respect we accept whoever and whatever comes into our circle, at least for the moment, in a friendly way. But not everyone is going to enter our circle of trusted friends. So at another level, I think most of us (including me) want to do more than to just deal with whoever walks in the door. It would give me more/additional pleasure to s…
  • (Quote from Hiram)Hiram I am certainly not advocating libertarianism of any other form of government as suitable for everyone, or as something that everyone should submit to my judgment on. Are you?
  • I am not sure which "answers that we don't have" you are referring to. You raised the example of Somalia and if you are referring to answers about the details of the Somalians I agree that we don't have them (at least I personally don't). But as to the overall analysis under Epicurean philosophy, PD30-40 make clear that there is NO absolute justice, so there is no one size fits all answers, only matters of agreement, where possible, or if there is no agreement, then there is no "justice" to ref…