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I have been listening to this episode several times to try to think about how to expand on some of the details. I think our serendipitous references "going to Rome" proved to be a good way of visualizing the question of how much pleasure to pursue in life. Dr Austin herself was reflecting on the word "enrich" as a way to look at it. I wonder if anyone has any thoughts on the usefulness of this analogy and the direction the discussion took. How many times should we desire to visit Rome?

…ctually stimulating but are not useful in epistemology (in Joshua's opinion) 15:25 -- Cassius (flip-side to Joshua's opinion): these kinds of thought exercises, such as in Lucretius -- the issue of whether there is a boundry to the universe, by visualizing the throwing of the javlin -- and this is a way of expressing that there is a question that needs to be examined. Mind experiments are mind expanding and can point to conclusions. 16:30 -- Method of understanding: Do these concepts exist apart …

Since we are going to tackle the thorny issue of the nature of the Epicurean gods in this coming podcast episode, it would probably be a good idea to post some of the most central additional references we have on this topic: PD01 The blessed and immortal nature knows no trouble itself, nor causes trouble to any other, so that it is never constrained by anger or favor. For all such things exist only in the weak. Velleius from Cicero's "On the Nature of the Gods" (Quote)

Also: Are there not some references in Lucretius to our motions being the result of us first visualizing the motion? I thought it was here in Book 2 in regard to the swerve, but it's not exactly stated that way -- HOWEVER see the reference to "clear to see" in line 272 : (Bailey) I wonder if that is an "ante oculos" -> [251] Once again, if every motion is always linked on, and the new always arises from the old in order determined, nor by swerving do the first-beginnings make a certain start of m…

… best you can. For a very obvious example, when evaluating which course of several to apply, sitting down and preparing a chart of the pluses and minus of each option. Which brings to mind that i still like at time today to use a pen and paper to write things down, and I find that the act of writing seems to solidify my connection with the thought. People talk about that as muscle memory or something,right? Maybe there's something analogous about visualizing…

What’s interesting is visualizing what this new Garden of servers in an abstract cyber meta world looks like conceptually. A labyrinth of IP addresses all pinging off what must be like a walled “cube” (where at the moment) all of us are inside discussing this. Welcome to the Meta verse!

(Quote from Godfrey) I think you're right. I'd also suggest we dig into the practice Philodemus talks about as "setting before the eyes" which strikes me as a vivid visualization. I've seen him use it in reference to anger and, as I understand, you "set before your eyes" what you look like when you are angry and have lost all reason and composure. Really investigate if that's what you want. Do you like the look of yourself that way?

…then notice to my surprise that I'm aware of a preconception involving that particular experience. Having said that, my understanding is that "meditation" for the ancient Greeks was actually more of a thought process, for example memorizing doctrines or visualizing…

…I'm not sure about that though; the circumplex and kinetic/katastematic are two completely different models and it's probably a stretch to equate them too closely. As to the lack of a neutral state, I think that it has practical significance in visualizing and understanding pleasure in addition to logical arguments. Understanding the interaction of degrees of pleasure and arousal is useful in finding guidance from your feelings. As LFB explains, our feelings are often influenced by things we don'…

…logist by noticing rock formations, and the botanist by noticing plants. Each was oblivious to the markers of the others. None of these systems of markers have anything to do with internalizing a map as commonly defined; a map is constructed by visualizing the markers in space and transferring them to paper. Similarly, I see syllogistic logic as an attempt to represent ways of thinking, not as the way in which we think. Some of the greatest technical and creative innovations have occurred after a…

(Quote from Godfrey) Ah, but even that death should be mitigated by the knowledge that pain is either chronic and endurable or short and fatal... At least theoretically according to PD4

Cassius I was thinking of the PROCESS of dying, a la Epicurus. Absolutely there's nothing to enjoy once we're dead! As far as thinking about death goes, to me that would only apply to thinking about a good death... I can't imagine finding pleasure in visualizing being eaten by a tiger. That's why I clarified that I think the first version of the exercise that I proposed is more appropriate than the second version. (Quote from Don) Yes Don this is exactly what I had in mind; good cite!

Don thanks for adding that link! It's nice to have related discussions close at hand. After some further thought I think that the first version of this exercise, visualizing dying well, is both the most useful and the most Epicurean (as is often the case). At least for me, it reinforces the understanding that if we can find pleasure even in death, we can certainly find pleasure in each moment of living.

(Quote from Elayne) Yep - that's the kind of observation that makes it clear that there's more to this picture / spectre / image than we're currently seeing!

Besides that, when he explains visualizing (imagination) of an actual type of thing as images re-entering, that whole process relies on memory! If I want to think of a cow, how would I do it without memory of what a cow looks like? And he said that is a process of deciding to see the thing and that image is instantly available. Not that the memory of what a cow looks like comes from inside a storage in the mind!

(Quote from Cassius) I am currently writing a Ph.D thesis on the politics, law and sociology of distributing scarce resources (more specifically the distribution of 'limited rights' like grants and subsidies by governmental agencies). That is why this quote by Cassius resonated with me. Scarcity as a concept was unknown in traditional communities. People pursued goals and used certain means. Only with the introduction of modern economics did problems with scarcity arise. The goals people can cho…

…ractical reasons, of course, but I do think there is an inner drive to "self-improvement" that is associated or part of this pleasure drive. Variation may not be necessary, but there's no commandment or reason to settle for "simple pleasures" when there are other pleasures that you decide are within your reach at a reasonable cost in pain and that you judge (or feel) would be rewarding for you to have. And of course the aspect of "visualizing…

…etter players, because that's how you learn to improve yourself. Many of the suggestions of Epicurus about contemplating eternality and infinity and the gods seem to me sort of the same kind of thing - that we make our lives better by regularly visualizing "better" examples of what we would like to be ourselves. But remember, I am the one who holds open the door to the possibility of ancient astronauts and the whole "Star Trek" kind of universe as possibilities, and in fact probabilities in some …

Thanks Godek. Are you good with Google docs and spreadsheets? Why don't we go ahead and actually setup a spreadsheet format as Hiram initially suggested? Your list of considerations is certainly a good start, but probably in terms of visualizing the final result setting up an actual spreadsheet divided into columns would be better. Maybe Hiram pictures it differently but I am picturing a spreadsheet generally divided into two columns. And it's important to decide whether we are making a spreadshe…

…ent of these goals no doubt served a useful purpose to the ancient Epicureans, and I submit that in some form it still serves a useful purpose. We are flying blind with very few authoritative texts available on what the Epicureans thought and did, but if someone today isn't visualizing…