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This is a thread to discuss general issues as to how modern-day Epicureans should think today about Epicurus' views on the age and size of the universe. The same questions arise as to infinite divisibility, whether the universe has a center, and other issues as well, but probably it would be best to focus on Epicurus' views on the eternality and infinity of the universe as presenting the clearest field for debate. If you check Wikipedia under "Age of the Universe" you will find the answer define…

(Quote from Don) Yes I think this is a very key point. Most of us here are acclimated and fine with pointing out that Epicurus' "atom" was simply meant to be whatever is uncuttable, indivisible, etc., and we're not dismayed when we think about molecules, atoms, electrons, and further and further down. Epicurus wasn't concerned with the intermediate steps - he was making an ultimate logical point that at some point there "must" be something that is uncuttable and unchangeable in order to hold thi…

I'll also interject this paragaph from Lucian's "Aristotle the Oracle Monger" as I think it illustrates the interplay of theory and observation, and the need to at times hold on to the conclusions of sound theory rather than current observation, which is what I think we are ultimately talking about. I think this is showing what it is that Lucian really considered Epicurus' achievement to be, and I think Lucian is correct. (Quote) http://epicurism.info/etexts/Alexander.html

Don I think you make a great point -- we need to be absolutely clear about what we mean by science. And frankly in most discussions I don't think people are at all clear as to what they mean, and they include all sorts of things that are dubious in the picture when they say things like "Science says....". As far as I am concerned that is very poor phrasing, and there is no such thing as "science saying something" -- only particular scientists saying particular things. I am much more comfortable …

(Quote from Matt) I think Epicurus might ask you: "And on what do you base your knowledge that there will be no supernatural retribution if you don't indulge in those prayers and sacrifices?"

(Quote from Matt) And this is my issue with overly-broad references to "science" and "scientists." -- Which scientists are we going to listen to, when they disagree among themselves. I seem to remember when I was younger that people were so jaded about Russian scientists speaking the party line rather than the truth that that would be an example of the type of scientist definitely not to follow. And it's really hard to achieve much by saying "reputable scientists" or "the majority of scientists"…

Admin Note: Don asked a great question of Matt about happiness vs pleasure, and that discussion needs to continue as long as appropriate, but so as not to disrupt this thread on science and eterrnality etc, I clipped that out and moved it here: RE: On "Happiness" As An Abstraction / "Pleasure" As a Feeling. As for Matt's comment, let's include in this thread issues such as how do you know that there is no supernatural retribution or reward?

Once again my negligent typing rears its head. Thank you Joshua! I will correct the original but leave these comments to document your assistance!