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Had this been shared before? https://www.academia.edu/resource/work/47860495

I think I agree with you, Godfrey . My position is that katastematic pleasures - namely aponia and ataraxia - are what we feel in homeostasis when the body and mind are in proper working order and our minds are not troubled (especially by those existential fears of "the gods" and death). Then we can more readily experience other pleasures that give us variety of pleasure. I need to go back and review Nikolsky et al.

(Quote from Cassius) By "authorities," are you referring to ancient texts or current academics? (Quote from Cassius) Isn't all pleasure a sensation by Epicurean definition? Πάθη is something that happens to you, something that is experienced. LSJ: "what is done or happens to a person or thing, opp. πρᾶξις" (Quote from Cassius) That's my position in defining it as the two components of homeostasis: mental and physical. It can be maintained over time while "kinetic" pleasure is momentary and provi…

Thanks, Cassius !! All good points and sources. Some random thoughts: So, we're setting up a David v Goliath scenario.The majority isn't always correct (ex, geocentrism anyone?)We got some Wikipedia editing to do, backed up with sources. The fact that that author reads all of Epicurus through the Philebus lens is problematic and frustrating. "Epicurus does not think there are any positive pleasures". By Zeus, What an ignorant statement!.. None except for sex and pleasing sights and joy and.... T…

[136] Διαφέρεται δὲ πρὸς τοὺς Κυρηναϊκοὺς περὶ τῆς ἡδονῆς: οἱ μὲν γὰρ τὴν καταστηματικὴν οὐκ ἐγκρίνουσι, μόνην δὲ τὴν ἐν κινήσει: ὁ δὲ ἀμφοτέραν : : ψυχῆς καὶ σώματος, ὥς φησιν ἐν τῷ Περὶ αἱρέσεως καὶ φυγῆς καὶ ἐν τῷ Περὶ τέλους καὶ ἐν τῷ πρώτῳ Περὶ βίων καὶ ἐν τῇ πρὸς τοὺς ἐν Μυτιλήνῃ φιλοσόφους ἐπιστολῇ. ὁμοίως δὲ καὶ Διογένης ἐν τῇ ἑπτακαιδεκάτῃ τῶν Ἐπιλέκτων καὶ Μητρόδωρος ἐν τῷ Τιμοκράτει λέγουσιν οὕτω: νοουμένης δὲ ἡδονῆς τῆς τε κατὰ κίνησιν καὶ τῆς καταστηματικῆς. ὁ δ᾽ Ἐπίκουρος ἐν τῷ Περ…

Cicero: nihil esse praestabilius otiosa vita, plena et conferta voluptatibus "nothing is better than a life of ease, full of, and loaded with, all sorts of pleasures" http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/h…04.0059%3Aentry%3Dotiosus http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/h….04.0059%3Aentry%3Dplenus http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/h….0060%3Aentry%3Dconfertus My question: Does this describe a life of katastematic pleasure as a foundation filled with kinetic pleasure?

(Quote from Godfrey) That's my take, as of (looks at time on phone...). Katastematic, from its basic meaning of "a condition or state of health," means to me the proper, undisturbed functioning of our body and minds. Free from fear. Free from anxiety. Free from pain, for the most part. We are mortal beings after all. Mens sana in corpore sano, so to speak. From that ground/foundation, we can better make sound, practical choices and rejections and enjoy the day to day pleasures as they arise, inc…

Well, we've certainly strayed far from our delightful porcine mascot, haven't we?

(Quote from Godfrey) And "sarcastic and misleading" is exactly what I'd expect from our "dear friend" Cicero

I found a paper that I just started reading, then did a search here and found it only mentioned by Cassius in 2019. For ease of access: Here is Cassius 's 2019 response: Another Article Insisting On The Importance of the Kinetic / Katestematic Distinction, Despite Citing Nikolsky And here is the direct link to the paper: https://www.academia.edu/resource/work/25618760 I'm not sure I have the same reaction as Cassius , but hey it's early in the morning. I'll report back later, maybe after rereadi…

More by the same author: https://www.academia.edu/resource/work/30648126 https://www.academia.edu/resource/work/37454967

(Quote from Godfrey) Well put! Exactly. Remember, too, that when you say... (Quote from Godfrey) That's not exactly what Epicurus said. That's an extrapolation and Interpretation of: "ἡ μὲν γὰρ ἀταραξία καὶ ἀπονία καταστηματικαί εἰσιν ἡδοναί: ἡ δὲ χαρὰ καὶ ἡ εὐφροσύνη κατὰ κίνησιν ἐνεργείᾳ βλέπονται." That whole "which imply a state of rest" is contained in καταστηματικαί. The only thing that we can be sure is that that first sentence reads: "For ataraxia and aponia are 'katastēmatikai' pleasure…

It seems to me that, just from observation, there are at least two types of pleasures that exist as states of being, as Epicurus points out, such as: - being in a calm, tranquil state of mind (ataraxia) - and feeling the the positive feeling of a body without pain in good working order (aponia) We can work toward those states, and part of it is dispelling fears and anxiety and also taking care of our physical bodies. But once they are there, we don't "work at" feeling that pleasure. It just is (…

Have we brought up Fragment 68 yet? 68. To those who are able to reason it out, the highest and surest joy is found in the stable health of the body and a firm confidence in keeping it. (Saint-Andre) τὸ γὰρ εὐσταθὲς σαρκὸς κατάστημα (katastēma) καὶ τὸ περὶ ταύτης πιστὸν ἔλπισμα τὴν ἀκροτάτην χαρὰν καὶ βεβαιοτάτην ἔχει τοῖς ἐπιλογίζεσθαι δυναμένοις. http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/h…57%3Aentry%3Dkata%2Fsthma εὐσταθὲς = "well based, standing firm, stable (relatively unchanging)" σαρκὸς (sarkos, genit…

(Quote from Don) Ah! Now I see why there was no translation on the inscription website! These columns are from NF192 ("new fragment 192") first described in 2011 and then expanded on in this 2014 paper in JSTOR: Diogenes of Oinoanda on the Meaning of 'Pleasure' (NF 192) Author(s): Barnaby Taylor Source: Zeitschrift für Papyrologie und Epigraphik , 2014, Bd. 191 (2014), pp. 84-89 Published by: Dr. Rudolf Habelt GmbH Stable URL: https://www.jstor.org/stable/43909587 Here are two selections: "Dioge…

Okay, here's Metrodorus, Fragment 5: I just found this, and it also references Cicero so this may be a known fragment already. (PS. I see it also references Epicurus Fragment 68 which has some similar wording. So, Metrodorus's contribution isn't earthshaking but does appear to be reinforcing.) Nonetheless, there's our old friend κατάστημα right there (using the alternative c for sigma: κατάcτημα). Using https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/02102.htm as a source for a translation of Metrodorus: "Met…

(Quote from Godfrey) I sent you a conversation regarding the homeostasis topic so we don't derail And thanks! I'm enjoying the research

(Quote from Kalosyni) I've mentioned it several places. Here's a search: https://www.epicureanfriends.c…68/&highlight=homeostasis You'll see me mention Dr. Lisa Feldman Barrett and Dr. Anna Lembke in those search results. Just so there's no confusion, homeostasis is not some idiosyncratic state that might appeal to introverts over extroverts. It is the well-functioning of one's body and mind when everything is in balance. Here's the biological definition: https://www.khanacademy.org/sc…homeostas…

I wanted to address the title of Metrodorus's book that is cited by Clement of Alexandria. The title in Greek is: Περι του μειζονα ειναι την παρ' ἡμας αἰτιαν προς εὐδαιμονιαν της ἐκ των πραγματων The "New Advent" English translation is: On the Source of Happiness in Ourselves being greater than that which arises from Objects I don't entirely agree with the translation choices made there, but they'll do well enough. What I want to do is look at several key words that impact our current discussion…

(Quote from Kalosyni) Here's some of my own commentary on VS11. VS11 For most people, to be quiet is to be numb and to be active is to be frenzied. τῶν πλείστων ἀνθρώπων τὸ μὲν ἡσυχάζον ναρκᾷ, τὸ δὲ κινούμενον λυττᾷ. τῶν πλείστων ἀνθρώπων (gen) the greatest number of people (i.e., the majority of people)ἡσυχάζω (hesykhazo) I. to be still, keep quiet, be at rest, Aesch.; ἡ ἀπορία τοῦ μὴ ἡσυχάζειν the difficulty of finding rest, Thuc.:—often in part., ἡσυχάζων προσμένω Soph.; ἡσυχάσασα by resting …