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I am together with all of this with the probable exception of post 3. That is not what Diogenes Laertius says about the two categories, is it? And of course I also want the record to reflect that I agree with Boris Nikolsky that the whole "katastematic" question is an overlay of non-Epicurean analysis adopted from other schools, well apart from Epicurus, which is an artifact of Diogenes Laertius' well meaning but imprecise attempt to categorize Epicurus according to theories well known at DL's t…

On looking up examples of damage that comes from loose construction, (which Don is surely avoiding, I know) I happened to look again at this from Wikipedia on the T. Take a look at the last sentence in this paragraph: What is terrible is easy to endure The Epicureans understood that, in nature, illness and pain is not suffered for very long, for pain and suffering is either "brief or chronic ... either mild or intense, but discomfort that is both chronic and intense is very unusual; so there is …

I thought of another perspective: What about the pleasure of remembering past pleasures? Is that not always available to us too? That is something that we all I think acknowledge to be a great pleasure, and always available, just like confidence or whatever we are designating as "katastematic." But none of us would suggest that " remembering past pleasures" is somehow the highest pleasure or the goal of all other pleasures, would we? Thinking about why "katastematic pleasure" is an obsession of …

It's good to go number by number. When I reread the list I found I had completely slipped over the ox analogy item. And for example the reference to the book by Metrodorus being cited by Clement of Alexandria... Is that title also cited by Diogenes Laertius? I thought DL cites the titles of Metrodorus" book too? Lots of good things to talk about in this thread.

Ok so yes there is a list of Metrodorus' works in DL and that's not in it, right? Is It clear that Clement is talking about the same Metrodorus? I don't really doubt the sentiment, given the statement in Torquatus that mental feelings can be stronger than bodily ones, but I don't know that we have more to work with than that, and I would expect the emphasis to be on "can" rather than "are always." Being burned in phalaris' bull might not be able to extinguish every scintilla of pleasurable memor…

Now I am unfortunately inserting something random but I will be short: Here I feel in sympathy with Cicero. English, like Latin, is a rich language. There is something fundamentally wrong going on when we have a supposedly critical concept for which people insist on using an untranslated foreign word, as if English were insufficient to explain the concept. Like Lucretius, we should use our own language to explain what we mean by "katastematic pleasure," and if we can't or don't then that in itse…

The external analysis seems reasonable to me, and the "'zenia" might indeed be relevant if less attractive to us today, but - as to: [4] [Epicurus teaches us that good is easy for us to procure] and that evil is [not] only limited precisely because it is useless to have defined the good (τἀγαθόν), if it is difficult, if not impossible, for us to attain, Do those brackets mean that this is partly or totally reconstructed? If so by how much? Is this bootstrapped off the later "Tetrapharmakon"? Als…

(Quote from Don) Don are you aware of any other reference stating "easy" other than the tetrapharmokos ?

This is where I wish we had more detailed info on the Vatican sayings: VS08. The wealth required by Nature is limited and is easy to procure; but the wealth required by vain ideals extends to infinity "Required?" Is this one of the sayings that comes from Epicurus himself or one that certainly does not? Questions questions questions..... Being an advocate for Epicurus in the modern world, like in his time, is not for the faint of heart or for those who can't stand controversy.